The Level Up English Podcast
The Level Up English Podcast
#105 The Story Learning Method with Olly Richards
Olly Richards joins me for a talk about learning through stories. Olly is a polyglot, author and well-known language learner. Through his podcast (I Will Teach You A Language), he shares advice for language learners and interviews expert guests. His book series "Short Stories" has had a huge impact on the language-learning community.
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Welcome to the level of English podcast, the best place to come to practice the English language. Learn about the British accent and culture with me, your host, Michael Lavers. Hello, English learners. Today. I have an episode that you're not going to want to miss. I was joined today by Ali Richards, who is an author, a polyglot language learner language teacher. He has his own podcast. He kindly joined me today to talk about his book series and his thoughts on reading. So he has a series of books called short stories. He's got books in English and I think over 15 languages, maybe over 20, he's got many languages from French to Icelandic Russian and these books focus on stories, learning through stories. So I invited him on today to talk about his story learning method and how you can improve your English by reading stories. He's got lots of amazing advice. So we touch on what you should read methods of how you can read, how much time you should spend studying each day. And we talked, we spoke about some common mistakes that learners make when it comes to reading and learning a language in general only riches also has a fantastic podcast. I'm a big fan myself, and it is the, I will teach you a language podcast. So he has lots of great advice for people learning a language and it, so if you want some more snippets of advice from his years of experience, then don't forget to check out his podcast as well. If you need an extra hand in kind of understanding our conversation today, you can get access to the transcripts and you can do that by going to level up english.school/transcripts. So that might help you. You can read along while we're talking as well, but really hope you enjoy this one. Thank you for watching. And if you do like it, leave a comment and share your thoughts with us as well. I am delighted to be joined today by all your Richards. So Ali, thank you very much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for the invitation. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:I'm really glad you could make it. So I'm sure many of the listeners will be already familiar with you because you have a very popular podcast and I will teach you a language podcast and I'm you do all sorts of stuff, but for those who don't, would you mind giving like a quick introduction as to what you're up to and maybe your background with languages?
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. Thank you. So my, I, I, I, I'm kind of known for speaking a lot of languages, so I've learned eight languages and, uh, but I didn't start that way. I started, I learned my first foreign language. I was about 19 and, uh, that was French. And, um, I did quite well with French. I'm going to spend a bit of time in Paris and that gave me lots of confidence with languages. So I went on to learn lots of other languages after that Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese Cantonese, Arabic, Italian, and a couple of others. I've kind of flirted with German and Thai and Korean a little bit. Um, but not, not, not seriously. And so I've always learnt lots of languages of love. Languages has been a big part of my life. And then I taught English for many years, mostly in Japan and in the middle East. So I kind of learned to be a teacher as well. And then eventually I decided to start writing about language learning. So I combined my experience learning languages with teaching languages. And that's what led me to start my, my blog, uh, which is I will teach you a language and then also, um, write books, which, um, people may have seen them in book shops around the world. And basically just start to create stuff for language learners using, using my, my ex ex experience in various different, uh, parts of the, uh, the language learning world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic. So you have obviously a long, you know, many years of experience at leading up to now. And, um, so you said F French, it was French that got you interested in languages in the first place. Right?
Speaker 2:Well, what happened was I, so I was living in London and I got a job in a, in a cafe. And, um, there were lots of people working in this cafe from all over the world. They were from Italy, Japan, Sweden, France. And this was kind of a revelation for me because I just suddenly had contacts with people from all around the world. And I realized, Hey, these are pretty cool people. And they come from very cool places. Um, people would, my friends would tell me what it was like in their, in their village, in Spain or in, you know, the kind of food they would eat in France. I, it just sounded like a dream, so I wanted to learn all of their languages. Um, but I started with French.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very similar to me. I find it, I think many people in the UK, they're almost like closed off from other languages because we're not a very monolingual country, you know? And I think when you have that first glimpse of, you know, different cultures and languages, I think a lot of people get hooked that way. Um, but I think for me, it started with Japanese instead, but yeah, that's good. And yeah, you mentioned, um, it's kind of the main thing I wanted to ask you about today. You mentioned you have your book series at the moment. Yeah. Would you mind explaining a little bit about that and the kind of, I would say philosophy or the idea behind that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm, um, one of the things I do is, is, is write books and publish books. And I have a big series of short stories, which are published with the teacher herself and these aren't, we have, I've actually lost track of the number of languages. Now we have, I think we have over 20 languages, beginner level and intermediate level. And, and also we have our own, um, within my own business, we have our own publishing company where we, we produce other language learning books, which are not really short stories, but they're more books to help with them, with grammar and with, with, with speaking and things like that. And, um, but it's the sort of storybooks that most people know because they are they're, you know, they're in bookshops. And the idea with that is, so I I've always been a fan of, of graded readers because they, with graded readers, you can spend time with the language by yourself. You can learn tons just by reading, but I always found that Grady readers were really stuffy and boring. So you'd often get kind of old classics like Charles Dickens or, or, or Jane Austen or something like that, which, you know, they're great, but that's not everybody's cup of tea and it gets a bit, a bit boring sometimes. So what I really wanted to do was to make books for language learners that are fun and interesting, the kind of books that you really want to pick up, like crime thrillers, or murder mysteries or Saifai, or history or things like that. And so I wrote these stories basically because I wanted people to enjoy reading and to have stories that, that were exciting enough to read. So that was the, that was the philosophy behind it. And then, um, and then, yeah, that, that started with one book that I wrote in Spanish. And then that turned into hundreds of others over time. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I think your, I think you're much further ahead in your language learning journey than I am. I do not so good at so many, but I'm kind of seeing more and more that it's reading is more important. You know, there's so much you can gain from reading. And I think it's a very neglected skill for some people, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is because when we speak a language we only use, I don't know, 10% of the word that we actually know. So every word that me and you use today in this conversation is going to be no more than it's going to be a tiny percentage of the words, all the words we actually know, because when we speak, it's very restricted. And so if you want to learn more in a new language, you have to, you have to learn from places other than listening to people speaking. But so this is why often in language, then you get people who are very good at speaking. And, you know, they're good having a kind of conversation in the pub, but they really struggle if they listened to the radio or if they have to read a book because they have a very, they have a very narrow, conversational range of vocabulary. So reading is one of the, one of the ways that you can, you can just, um, get lots of experience with the entirety of the language, learn new vocabulary, learn more interesting forms of, of grammar, some different expressions and things like that. So it's incredibly important. And the reason I think people don't do it more is because it's difficult to use in class for teachers because reading takes time. So teachers tend to ignore reading because it's, they don't really know how best to use it in class, but also it's, it's, you know, it's difficult to find interesting material. There's lots of, so for people learning English, and there are lots of books in English, but native level materials often, far too hard. And so you've got to find a way to, to bridge the gap from beginner to native level. And so that's, I mean, that's, that's why I wrote these graded readers books or short stories, because if you can, if you have something to read, that's not too difficult, but also fun then reading doesn't have to be scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, I can, I can kind of hear a lots of people wanting me to ask this. So what would you say to people who don't like reading? They said they're not interested in reading even in their own language. Do you think it's still a viable method for them?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a viable method, but yeah, the best method in the world is the method that you actually use and actually follow, you know, and I'm, I think life is too short to do things that you don't enjoy doing. And if you really, I said this to someone on a, on a, on a live stream the other day, they said, Oh, I just really hate reading. So what can I do? And I said to him, look, don't read them, do, do something you enjoy. Life's too short. This is not for everybody. So, I mean, I've, I've kind of, I've developed this, the, the, the idea of reading into a very specific method that I call the storylining method. And so this is a way that I teach languages through reading, and I have a very specific method around that. Why are you going to do this first and then do this second? Um, but it's not for everybody. And there are lots of people out there who just love speaking. And can't sit still with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with a book for more than five minutes. And it's probably not for them. We all have to find the things that we most enjoy doing in, in, in a language. So, for example, for you, Michael, what was, when you, when, when you've learned Japanese, I think you mentioned what kind of learner are you? Are you someone that just loves to speak and thrives on the, on the, on the conversation and the communication? Or do you like reading manga or is it watching? Is Japanese TV? What, what's the thing that most excites you?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, this is why I love this question because when I first started, it was like 10 years ago. I didn't know anything about language learning. And I just thought, well, I have to use these grammar books and textbooks, things like that. So I just spent about three years just reading these grammar books and things like that I had to do. And I really didn't like it. I mean, I liked the fact that I was learning a language, but not, you know, not really way I went about it. And it didn't really benefit me that much in the long run. Um, so yeah, over the years I have changed my methods to focus on what I enjoy and like, what would that be now? I guess it, I do like flashcards a lot. I focus a lot on flashcards, but conversation is where it's at for me. Um, because that to me is what you're learning the language for, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And many people, many people are the same as well. So, but it's all it's worth remembering. You know, we sometimes forget that there are many people out there who really love grammar and textbooks and are happiest when they're sat with a textbook and, um, and doing that. So, and then equally there are people that just love, just love speaking. And for these, for, for both sets of people, they're going to get more. If someone who loves, uh, grammar and textbooks, for example, they are going to learn far more doing that than they are by trying to use some speaking methods or flashcards because they simply don't enjoy it. So I think, I think, you know, when w when you're getting started, it's the method that you enjoy, that's going to work best. I think where it gets interesting is once you've reached a strong intermediate level, so you're kind of B, B one B2 level. So you kind of know all the basics. Um, and you're ready now to kind of step up into the higher levels. This is where I think it gets, it gets interesting. And you have to start to adapt your method a little bit. So I think if all you do is if you, if you a big grammar, grammar nerd, for example, or you're really into speaking, or you love reading, like you can use any of these methods to get to an intermediate level. I think what happens though, is that these, these methods stop being so effective after that. So for example, if all you do is speak and use flashcards, a lot of people find that they really stop improving around intermediate level because they just don't get enough exposure to the language. It's too difficult to learn new things. But what we spoke about before most people only say a small number of, of words in conversation. So for the person who really loves speaking in a language, they've got to start doing something else that they want to continue to learn. And usually that's going to be reading. Cause that's the thing that is most different from, from speaking. Likewise, for someone who really loves learning with grammar and textbooks, that's going to get them to a, a good level, intermediate, upper intermediate, but sooner or later, if they want to really get good at the language, they're going to have to speak and speak a lot. And also that person's probably going to have difficulty understanding, spoken language as well. So they're going to have to spend lots and lots of time listening. So I think any method will kind of get you to an intermediate level beyond that. You've got to kind of make the decision. Okay. Do I want to keep learning? And am I willing to do all of these to do what takes to, uh, to, to keep improving?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you have to adapt, adapt your learning methods as you progress through the stages. Like yeah, I think that's good to remember. Definitely. Um, yeah. So how, how, how, I think you, might've kind of touched on this already a little bit, but how will like reading then, um, assist in other skills such as speaking, like, um, what H how can read in tie into your speaking and other aspects of language speaking and listening as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question, because this is one of the most common questions I get is like, well, I want to learn to speak. So why should I spend time reading? So you can only speak when you know, enough stuff in the language. So you, if you want to, if you want to speak articulately, you want to speak well in Japanese, for example, you've got to know enough stuff. You have to know lots of, lots of words. You have to know your, your grammar and, and what reading does is reading gives you a way to keep learning those things. So if all you do is speak, you're gonna, most people find they get into a trap of using the same words and the same phrases over and over again when they speak. And so you've got to find a way to learn new things so that you can, you can say things in a different way. You can use synonyms, you can use more, more expressive grammar. And so what, and so then the question is, well, where do you learn that stuff from? You probably won't learn it from speaking. And so you've got to learn that from somewhere you weren't learning from textbooks, because at that stage, you know, textbooks are, you know, they, they stop being so useful. So you've got to learn it either from listening or from reading. That's where input comes from. And so you can learn from listening, but listening is very hard to do at a, at a higher level, because it's all happening in real time. You can't slow it down and you can't, it's not convenience of study, too difficult to repeat, but with reading, you've got everything there on the page, which is the most convenient way to study. You can read, you can read something, you can read it again. You can scroll and scan back, um, sentences and paragraphs easily. You can look stuff up in the dictionary very easily, especially if you're reading online, like w w with one click. And so what reading does is it just gives you this endless source of new information, an endless source of learning, which then you can use in your speaking or reading. Doesn't automatically, it's not, it's not the case that you read, read, read, read, read, and then suddenly one day magically, you can speak, it doesn't work like that. You also have to speak a lot. And I think sometimes, sometimes people misunderstand that, uh, people think that reading is a way to learn to speak. It's not, you, you always have to spend a lot of time speaking, but what reading does is give you the, for the speaking, there's like the petrol for the car, or, um, and it's a way to continue learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I like that analogy. Yeah. So you need that fuel to keep going. Yeah. Um, I completely forgot. I was going to ask you because I was so focused on what you were saying, I guess, but no worries. Um, well I think maybe this is a good stage just to confirm. So I think, did you say you have two levels for each language? So English, you have two books, is it beginner, intermediate?
Speaker 2:Yeah. This is changing all the time. So we currently, I mean, as, as we speak, we have, uh, uh, uh, beginner, Booker beginner stories and of intermediate stories, but we're also working on a volume two at the moment, which will hopefully be out, uh, later this year. So it depends on when people are listening to this, but we're always, uh, always changing, always adding new things that are new languages as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, perfect. Perfect. Good to know. Um, so yeah, maybe we can get into some more specifics now. So I get a lot of questions from learners about like reading methods, like how they can go about reading. Um, if they should just read it casually likely within the native language or if there's any special language learning hacks, maybe. So, do you have any advice as to how to read these,
Speaker 2:But it does depend on the level a little bit. So the way that I normally characterize this is if you are still in the early stages, then you're going to be reading something many times over lots of repetition, because if you read one chapter of a story, you're going to understand something. If you go back and read it again, you're going to understand a little bit more. And every time you repeat that chapter, you're going to notice more things. So at the early stages, I recommend that you repeat lots and lots, but then as you get more advanced, then you're going to repeat a lot less and eventually get to a point where you're just reading for pleasure. And you don't repeat at all. So early stages, lots of repetition later stages
Speaker 1:Reading,
Speaker 2:Just like you would in your, in your mother tongue, because the ultimate goal, what we want to try and get to, if you think you ask yourself the question, well, how, how did I learn my native language? You learn your native language, obviously by speaking with your parents, but also by reading lots of books at school to study, but also books at home. And so w the ultimate goal learning a foreign language is to, it would be to read just like you do in your native language, just for pleasure. Now, you could say, well, should you, you study some of the stuff in the, in those books and you study the vocabulary or try to memorize the vocabulary, put them into flashcards, or try to study the grammar. And you can, you can do that. But the problem is that as soon as you enter what I call study mode. So as soon as you start to kind of try to memorize vocabulary and study what you're reading, it takes up all of your time. So what we have as learners is a choice between, do I just keep reading, read, and read and read and read, or do I try to study what I've been reading? And for me over the long-term, the big prize really is to just read as much as possible because reading is a form of natural repetition. So you mentioned, um, flashcards earlier, for example, one of the things that flashcards do is they keep, they help you repeat vocabulary. So they bring them back over and over again, because the more times you repeat the vocabulary, the, um, the more you're likely to learn or memorize or remember it. But reading as my friend, Anthony calls it his natural space, he calls it space, repetition, reading, not space repetition, but space repetition reading. Because if you keep reading, guess what? You're going to see those words over and over again anyway, which means you'll naturally learn them. So what I, what I tend to encourage people to do as much as possible is try to try to gradually stop studying. Studying is something you do as a beginner. Eventually you want to move to a, to a place where you're not studying a tool. You're just reading for pleasure, because then you'll, you'll read so much and you'll consume so much that it's impossible not to learn. So that's the kind of, uh, this is kind of big idea. Is there any parts of that that you'd like to kind of drill into in more detail?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's really fascinating. I mean, this is a problem that I, I'm always kind of debating with myself. Cause I, I have like a little bit of a reading session every morning and my languages and I want to get into it. I'm, it's like topics that I enjoy, but then I come across some words like, well, what does this mean? What does this mean? And I find it's more just, um, I'm spending more time in the dictionary than I am in the text. So perhaps I need to take your advice and focus more on, on the actual text and the enjoyment, but
Speaker 2:I mean, well, there's two, there's two parts to this, right? So the most important thing when you're reading is to choose a text that is at the right level for you. So students might know this as the idea of comprehensible input, because if you choose something that's too hard for you, then you don't understand anything. So you have to look stuff up in the dictionary, but if you can choose something at your level, that means that you already understand enough, you can follow the plot so you can follow the gist. And then at that point, you don't have to look in the dictionary because you already understand enough. So then you can say to yourself, right? I know, yes, there are a few words that I don't understand, but I'm just going to be strong and I'm not going to look them up because I know that I can follow the main idea. So I'm just going to keep reading and enjoy the plot. And then that that's, that's the best, the best combination. The number one reason that people struggle with reading is because they choose material that's far too hard for them. So, so you, yeah, you've got to stay away from that from the dictionary as much as possible. And the best way to do that is by choosing material at the right level for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I guess that's exactly where your books would come into play. Like as you make more as well, because that's what I find so hard. It's just fine. I mean, a lot of the more lower level books are just kind of fairy tales and that kind of stuff. And then the stuff that you're interested in is just a new native level. So it's quite hard to find the middle ground. Um, I think, uh, I know it's very hard to put language into like these are time constraints and things like that, but would you have any advice or recommendation for time? Like how much time you should spend reading each day or each week?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard to say that cause everybody, everybody is, everybody is different. And you know, I, I, I do think that, you know, as a point of principle, if you're spending any less than half an hour a day, you can't expect to make much progress, you know? So we've got to be realistic about this. You, you can't learn a language in 15 minutes a day,
Speaker 1:Do you mean in the whole study or just readings? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the whole study. Yeah. I mean, I think really if I think the most, the most helpful answer here is that if you're really studying and you're really trying hard to learn and you're, and you can S you, you, you consider yourself taking a language seriously. Then I think you've got to be doing at least one hour a day, just because, you know, this is a huge skill and to acquire any skill takes lots of time. And, you know, obviously you can learn stuff in five minutes, a day or 15 minutes a day, but you know, let's not kid ourselves learning a language is a huge task and it takes a really long time. So, you know, we've got to be realistic about the amount of time that we put in. So I do think that, you know, learning learning seriously, um, is, is, means to spend at least an hour a day on it. But what's more important than that almost is how consistent you can stay over time. So I think about my own, my own language learning I'm at the moment learning I'm studying Cantonese quite a lot. Um, but I've actually taken three or four years off against it. So I studied really hard. Like about five or six years ago, learned a lot. I've got to a good intermediate level in Cantonese, but then, you know, life happened and I stopped. And so now I'm kind of picking it up again after four or five years, and I'm working hard every day, but I think to myself, Oh man, you know, if the only thing I did differently was to not stop, then I'd be fluent by now know. So this, this idea of consistency is really far more important. So, you know, even if I think to myself, well, if I, you know, I've just said, you have to do a minimum of one hour a day, but then in the last five years where I've studied no Cantonese, if I had done only 10 minutes a day for five years, then I would have learned a lot of stuff as well. So, you know, I think it's about number one, making sure that the time that you spend matches your ambition so that you're not kidding yourself. And then number two, trying to make language, learning a real part of your, of your daily life that you can stay consistent with over time. So it's about that. It's about a good amount of time and then consistency over time.
Speaker 1:Mm. I always compare language learning to, to exercise. And it's the same, I think in the, it has to be a part of your lifestyle. It can't just be like a phase you go through, if you want to see progress.
Speaker 2:So a great analogy for this is I I've, um, you know, I, I really like exercise. I've always gone to the gym quite a lot, but last year when the pandemic, when Corona virus hit all the gyms closed, at least here in the, here in the UK, I see people on Instagram who are like in the gym and going to bars and stuff in different countries. And how is, how is all of that stuff open?
Speaker 1:It's really frustrating from, from our perspective. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Mexico, but I've got some friends in Mexico, like you were just on the beach, drinking cocktails. I don't think what did this coronavirus avoid? Like just sidestep, Mexico. I don't understand Thailand as well. I've seen. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and so anyway, so I had to stop going to the gym. And so instead I developed this habit of going for a one hour walk every morning. So every morning I wake up really early, about six o'clock and go for a one hour walk. And at first I didn't think it was very, very beneficial for me, but I realized after a few months I'd lost about five kilos in weight, which is a lot. And I lost far more than I ever did going to the gym. And then I realized, you know what? I went to the gym, I'd go, you know, two or three times a week. And then I'd kind of injure myself. So I'd take two weeks off and then I'd be tired. So I'd only go one week, one day, a week or something, and then I'd go on holiday. So I would miss two weeks, but the walking I did every single day for about, well, I've been doing it for over a year now. And it was just this simple thing of, of walking. It doesn't sound like much, but by doing it every day and by staying consistent with it, it got me, I got me incredible results. So I really think that that, that simple consistency is the most, the most powerful language learning technique of all. And then any questions you have about us, some difficult grammar or some difficult pronunciation or a word that just doesn't stick, those problems will all be solved naturally over time. If you can just stay consistent and do something every day and not take lots of time off.
Speaker 1:Um, I love that. Yeah. I'm with you with the walking thing. I think when was it probably the end of last year, I saw a YouTube video about how some guy who was ripped really muscular. I was like, I walked my way to fitness and that video kind of convinced me so everyday since I've been walking, um, yeah, probably at least an hour every day.
Speaker 2:Great. Yeah. It's wonderful. And also you get so much learning time there as well. You know, it's spend it out. I listened to lots of audio books, so I, you know, I've, I've um, I've, I've, I've just got so much reading done as well, just by having that one hour every morning. So it's yeah. It's, I think it's, it's the fuel for life is walking.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And podcasts as well. Of course, it's great to practice your listening or whatever like that. Yeah. What would be your advice for keeping that consistency and like not losing motivation and, you know, finding the motivation to keep going.
Speaker 2:It's such a difficult question and there's no, there's no easy answer for this. And we all know there's no easy answer, but ultimately I think learning a language means making it part of your life and the people who struggle with language learning always treat it as a chore. They treat it as something that they have to do that someone is forcing them to do. But the people that have a very easy time with language learning, they make it part of their life. And so the thing that I always, that I always, the exercise that I always get people to do is to think, well, how do you spend your time in your native language? And then what can you do in your target language to make it, to, to make it the same? Because that's going to give you the biggest chance of enjoying it. And when you enjoy it, that's the easiest way to keep it up. So like, so for example, for you, what are, what are some things which you spend a lot of time reading or listening to in English? So, you know, you're kicking back on a Sunday afternoon, you got a whole afternoon off. What do you, what book do you pick up or what do you watch on TV? Or do you listen to,
Speaker 1:This is more than anything problems, but yeah, quite often it might be sometimes about travel, um, sometimes about philosophy, which is very hard when you're learning a language, um, meditation, something like those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, so in that case, I mean, let's take the idea of philosophy. So yeah, it's hard maybe, but then the, the, the, even more important than we talked about comprehensible input before the idea that, you know, you should read stuff at, at your level, but there's, there's, uh, there's something that's even, even higher level than that. Even more important as an umbrella concept, which is the idea of compelling input, because if something is compelling, meaning that you're really, really interested in it, then you're going to find a way to understand it. So I would challenge you to start reading philosophy in the languages that you're learning, and yes, that could be quite difficult, but then you can often get beginner introductions to philosophy. You see this in English all the time, you see, you know, a short introduction to philosophy or philosophy for dummies or, or simple basic books on, on philosophy. So trying to find those in the language that you're, that you're learning, and then you're going to be really motivated to actually understand them. And then once you've read a couple of books on philosophy, then you could start to experiment with some YouTube videos on philosophy or some podcasts on philosophy. Because by that point, you will have learnt a lot of the key vocabulary around a philosophy. So you'll be, you'll be a lot better able to understand things that you listen to. And then, you know, maybe there is there's, um, a well known magazine called, um, lash. And I was thinking of psychology today, but there's probably a philosophy like a philosophy magazine or periodical in English. And so can you find the same thing then in your, in your target language? And, um, you know, maybe you can take, maybe, maybe you can go onto, um, onto, uh, an online course, like a kind of, um, you know, the MOOCs, the massive open online courses, the free university course or something on cost Coursera find a, a free online course about philosophy in the language that you're learning and take that course. There's so many different ways to, to kind of, um, so it's a geek out on topics that you're interested in. And, and often we, we just simply, we just don't make that connection. Instead, we are going to look for study books or we look for textbooks or, or, you know, language learning podcast or something. But, but you know, if you can just read or listen to the things that most interest you in the language in lots of different ways, that's going to be really helpful for you and my friend, Richard calls this a language Island. And this is an interesting concept for, for thinking about improving your level in a language, rather than picking up like 10 books on random topics. You can ask yourself, what topic am I going to focus on? And that topic is an Island. And so if it's philosophy, then you have lots of different things you could put on that, on that Island. It could be the books give you the podcasts. It could be some YouTube lectures, for example. And so you just stay on this Island, only reading and listening to things about philosophy. And because you stay on the Island, then the vocabulary is the same. The topics are the same. The speakers are often the same. And so you just because it got so much repetition there, you learn a lot faster. And, uh, and then later you can move on to a different, and then maybe you can start to read, read blogs on exercise or something, or listen to exercise podcast. And then you just stay on that exercise Island for awhile. And so this is a kind of way of focusing you on, on topics that you really enjoy. And, and, and it's, uh, it's a, it's a good way to, to just stay focused and learn faster.
Speaker 1:Mm yeah. I love that. I think I came across that idea of, of islands recently. Maybe it was on your podcast or somewhere, but that's something I'm trying to do more recently and it's, it's a really good, a good way to do it, I would say. Um, and yeah, compelling and I think very useful I've, I've had many students love reading Harry Potter. And even though they're quite beginner, they, they get through Harry Potter so easily because they're just so addicted to that friend.
Speaker 2:I mean, I, Harry Potter is one of those books. I think objectively Harry Potter is not a good word, a good book to learn a language with. Um, why? Because the vocabulary is just weird warts and wizards and spells and stuff. This is not, this is not, you know, vocabulary that you need in English or in any other language. But if you just love Harry Potter, then like all bets are off, then, you know, you've got to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to figure out what those words mean, and you're going to enjoy yourself so much that, that justifies spending all that time with the language and you're going to get lots from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's what I've experienced too. So, so, so in summary, compelling input is more important than comprehensive input.
Speaker 2:I think it has to be because, I mean, not not least because finding comprehensible input is often a big challenge, right. So I can say to you, yes, you have to read at your level and that's true, but finding a long list of material at your level, it can be difficult. And so often for purely practical reasons, we can't find, um, it can be difficult to find stuff at our level. So then the next best thing is to say, okay, well, if I can't find stuff at my level, at least it's going to be stuff that I really, really love.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I love all that advice. I think you've got a lot of, um, good snippets that I can cut out of there and put on the show notes as well. Cool. So, um, I don't know, maybe this is moving away from reading a bit now, but, um, quite a broad question. So I wanted to ask you if you have any, what, what, what do you think are some of the biggest mistakes that language learners make? It could be link shows, English learners. What are some of the big mistakes you see?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a difficult one. I mean, I, I think, uh, a lot of the, the, the major mistakes I've kind of mentioned already around the idea about consistency and then treating it, treating it too much as a, as a study thing and not being, um, you know, not, not aligning it more with your interests. Um, there's, there's a tendency in many parts of the worlds have focused too much on grammar because in a lot of education systems, um, people are taught with grammar. So I spent many years in Japan and I wa I was, I'd spent a lot of time inside junior high schools. And I watched how Japanese kids are taught and they are taught with a very old fashioned grammar translation methods. You're reading a text and then looking at the word for word translation. And so when you go to school and your, the way that you learn languages at school is grammar, grammar, grammar, grammar, it's natural that you're going to think, okay, well, grammar is the way to learn a language. So I think a lot of students worry too much about grammar. And I think grammar should really be, you know, maximum 10% of, of what you, what you spend your time with. Probably less, I think. Um, and so, yeah, the grammar too much focus on grammar is definitely a problem. The other, the other thing is never really, I don't think I see a lot of the time is people never, um, getting around to speaking. So it's spending a lot of time studying, but they're never actually sitting down and speaking the language. And so this, and it can be difficult. I understand why, because you've got to find people to speak to you to arrange that time. You might have to pay people sometimes to get that practice time. It can be difficult, but again, reality check. If you want to learn a language and you want to get good at speaking that language, you can have to spend a lot of time speaking one way or another. So it's good not to, um, not to ignore that completely for too long.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes. I do get a lot of questions on the Instagram of people saying, you know, how I really want to improve my speaking. I'm good at reading and listening. I just can't speak. And I say, well, how, how much time do you spend speaking a week? Oh, I don't speak. And then, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I, I, um, I just, uh, I just decided to, I'm gonna, um, preparing to make a YouTube video about, about this exact topic today, because I had a message or a comment the other day from someone saying, you know, no one seems to be able to tell me which method is going to help me speak fluently. And I'm like, well, sometimes people need to reality check. Like you will not become fluent at speaking by studying. The only way to get to learn to speak fluently is by spending years speaking. There's no, there's no shortcut. Uh, unfortunately, Hmm.
Speaker 1:So this is like a recurring question that I ask all the guests on this show, and this is partly to encourage like an acceptance of making mistakes. And it's not a big deal to make mistakes in language learning, especially. So if you think back over your history with language learning, language practice, have you ever made any kind of embarrassing or funny mistake?
Speaker 2:Many? I mean, I think that often people, when people tell stories of mistakes and they say, um, Oh, I said, this one thing, which could be interpreted in this different way. Most mistakes just don't matter. But there was one time when I was, I was living in Paris. I was working in Paris in this and as youth hostel. And I remember that I was, um, I was, it was kind of nighttime. And there were these two French guys who were staying in the youth hostel and they were cooking their own dinner. They were making themselves some pastel or something like that. And they just finished cooking. The food was on the plate, ready to eat. And they came up to me and said everything, everything, which means do you have any, any cutlery? Um, and, but I understood something. Uh, I understood something different. I understood. Do you have any, uh, any covers because covers and[inaudible], so it's just the difference between[inaudible] and, uh, cause I was working in the, in the youth hostel, I was used to people asking me for, um, for, for extra blankets in that room because they were cold. I, and as I understood, these guys were asking me for blankets and I was like, yeah, well just wait a minute, please. You know, you don't, you're not going to bed yet. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll just finish serving this person. And um, and then I'll, I'll come and get you your covers, you know? And so they kind of said, Oh, okay. And then they went and sat down again. And then I finished serving that customer and the five or 10 minutes later I went and I kind of got these two blankets and went to give them these guys were sitting down with their, with their pastor at the table, which by this point was stone cold. And, uh, and I just handed them these blankets. And, um, and, and I said, what are the[inaudible]? And they just did normal, particularly of not, not, not, I didn't want blankets, what color are you going to eat? Our pastor? And I was so embarrassed by that because obviously these guys that, you know, they'd just passed and just gone cold. And I could've just reached into the drawer right next to me and given them the, the, the stupid cutlery. Um, but, but, but I didn't, and that's, and it's, it's an understandable mistake because these two words are very, very close, but it's one of the, one of the few times when there was actually a very practical consequences to me not understanding that. And I was obviously extremely embarrassed by that.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, were they understanding or were they a bit angry?
Speaker 2:They just, they had cold food, you know, so they were very nice about it, but, you know, the cold food is cold food and blankets didn't really help them much at that point.
Speaker 1:I mean, one thing I've noticed is when people make these funny mistakes, they rarely, rarely happens again. Like, did you ever make that mistake a second time?
Speaker 2:Well, no. I mean, I remember it 20 years later. I'm never making that mistake again. Of course I never, you know, that, um, that situation hasn't come up again. Um, but if it ever did, if I ever had to decide whether to give someone a blanket or some cutlery, I would, I would nail it.
Speaker 1:I guess it's not an everyday situation, but yeah, it's good to learn from this. Well, nice. Well, thank you very much for sharing. Um, listen, I, I really appreciate your time today. It's been, it's been wonderful to, you know, pick your brain and get to hear your, uh, your thoughts on language learning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, we mentioned the books before, which are called short stories in short stories in English for, in our case, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Short stories in English and region scan a Swedish Korean Turkish. Thank you. Pick. Yes. Perfect. Perfect. So, but yeah, if people want to get, get hold of them, they can go to, uh, any, any book shop, um, or online on Amazon or something and just type in short stories, Olly, Richards, and then you'll all just search for Holly Richards and you, and you'll find you'll find it online.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know about other countries, but I know in the UK, it's very hard to miss them in the language sections. I've seen them all over in the bookshops, so yeah. You'll see them in there as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Then they're known for, we've got really fantastic covers done for these books. And I think this is one of the best things we did actually was get these really artistic art deco style covers. So yeah. They're very recognizable.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, do you want to shout out your anything else, like podcasts or anything? Cause I, I think you've got an amazing podcast. I've learned a lot from it myself and I think,
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so if you'd like podcasts and you don't mind listening to my voice too much, you can go to the, I will teach you a language podcast is on all the usual places, Apple podcasts, Spotify, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm on YouTube as well. So I make regular YouTube videos about language learning. And you can find that at, um, yeah, go to YouTube and search for Olly Richards. There, we do lots of cool things like giving away language books and things like that. So hopefully you'll enjoy that. I'm on Instagram, I'm everywhere, Instagram, you know, the usual stuff.
Speaker 1:I'll do my best to link everything in the show notes as well. If people just want to play along show notes, if you're trying to think of it, hold on. I'll see what I can do. That's my challenge. But yeah. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. It's been, it's been really incredible to chat and I hope I'm sure the listeners have gained a lot from it too. So thank you for your time.
Speaker 2:Great questions. And uh, yeah, it would be, uh, let's do it again sometime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. You have been listening to the level up English podcast. If you would like to leave a question to be answered on a future episode, then please go to level up english.school forward slash podcast. That's level up english.school/podcast. And I'll answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening.
